王石是位在商业和环境慈善领域受到尊敬的领导者、企业家。他是万科企业股份有限公司创始人、名誉主席，是世界上最大的房地产开发商之一，也是财富500强企业。退休后，他全心投入万科公益基金会，开展环保公益事业。2021年12月，CAPS联合创始人兼主席陈启宗与王石进行了一次线上对话，以了解他所开展的环境慈善事业以及他对中小企业参与创建一个可持续发展世界的行动建议。
Wang Shi is a respected leader and entrepreneur in business and environmental philanthropy. He is the Founder and Honorary Chairman of China Vanke Co., Ltd., one of the world’s largest real estate developers, and a Fortune 500 company. After retiring, he devoted himself to Vanke Foundation’s environmental philanthropy work. Ronnie C. Chan, Co-Founder and Chair of the Centre for Asian Philanthropy and Society (CAPS), had a conversation with Wang Shi in December 2021 to understand his work in environmental philanthropy and his recommendations for small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs) working to create a sustainable world.
陈启宗：王石你好，你是中国企业家中做环保的代表性人物，很高兴请你来分享环保经验。感觉你那个年代对环境保护议题不那么关注，你为什么会对环保产生兴趣，能否分享下背后的故事？
Hello, Wang Shi. You are one of the most representative Chinese entrepreneurs in environmental protection, and I am glad to have you here to share your experience with us. How did you become interested in the environment, could you share the story behind it?
王石：中国人本身对大自然有一种亲密的联系吧，我也不例外。也有一部分是受我父亲的影响，他是农村出来，本身就很喜欢庄稼、植物等自然环境。小时候家里走廊上全是花花草草，印象中每天早上一下床就看到各种植物。再加上从小我就喜欢到户外探险，登山、爬山等，让我产生对自然的热爱。要说转折点是在2002年，我去登乞力马扎罗（非洲最高峰）。我是从海明威的小说里知道这里的，那一带附近的高海拔雪山一年四季长年积雪，但当我登上雪山，竟发现没有一片雪，这对当时的我刺激非常大。还有一次在南极，我半身赤裸在极点上站了20分钟，最令人意外的是完全没有你想像中那么冷。
Chinese people have an intimate connection with nature, and I am no exception. Part of me was influenced by my father. He came from the countryside and was very fond of nature. The hallway in our home was filled with plants and flowers, and as a child, I saw different kinds of plants every morning when I woke up. Besides, I’ve always enjoyed outdoor activities such as hiking and climbing. All of these experiences have led me to have a fondness for nature. The turning point was in 2002 when I climbed Mount Kilimanjaro (the highest peak in Africa). I read about this mountain in a Hemingway novel. The high-altitude, snow-capped mountains are supposed to be covered in snow all-year-round, but unexpectedly, I found that there was no snow when I climbed to the top. Another time when I was in Antarctica, I stood shirtless at the pole for 20 minutes, and was again surprised that it wasn’t as cold as I thought it would be.
之后，我开始了解到这些现象背后的原因，譬如说气候变暖、中国碳排量、森林过度砍伐等严峻的环境问题。我从那时就开始思考：这些和我有什么关系，和中国有什么关系，和中国企业家什么关系？2004年，我和其他100位企业家发起了阿拉善SEE， 这是中国最大的，由企业家组成的民间环保组织。
Afterwards, I began to learn about the reasons behind these phenomena, such as global warming, China’s carbon emissions, deforestation, and other serious environmental issues. It was then that I started to think, “what does all of this have to do with me, with China, and with Chinese entrepreneurs?” In 2004, I and a hundred other entrepreneurs launched the Alashan SEE Ecological Association, the largest private environmental organization formed by entrepreneurs in China.
陈启宗：你认为中国企业应该在环保领域扮演什么样的角色？
What role do you think Chinese companies can play in the field of environmental protection?
王石：两个方面，一个是你企业本身产品要符合绿色、环保的标准。企业要自律，这是底线。而且就现在的大环境来看，仅守住底线是不够的，还需要主动积极的做绿色转型。另一方面， 在中国，推动社会往前发展有三种力量：政府、企业和公益组织。其中，我认为企业应该扮演比较重要的角色，因为企业是营利者，应发挥财富创造者的价值；同时，企业也有更强的组织动员能力，去支持公益组织发展。
There are two aspects for corporates to consider: First of all, your business products must meet environmental standards. Enterprises should be self-disciplined, and that is the bottom line. In fact, in the current environment, just meeting the bottom line is not enough. You need to take the initiative to actively pursue green transformation. Secondly, corporates should play a greater role in the public sector. In China, there are three forces driving society forward: the government, enterprises, and NGOs. Among these, I think enterprises should play a more important role because they are profit makers and should emulate the values of wealth creators. At the same time, enterprises also have a stronger ability to mobilize organizations and support the development of NGOs.
陈启宗：你说的可能是比较大的企业，那中小企业呢？他们能怎么参与？
You’re probably referring to the larger companies’ roles, but what about the small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs)? How can they participate?
王石：那可能更多的是如何借助现在公益组织、各个行业、各界社会力量建立起的关系来带动绿色发展。比如说，中国纺织协会也没有太多大企业，大概有23万家。虽然纺织业涉及很多污染源，但这个行业在环境保护方面做得非常好，原因有二：第一，国际品牌的倒逼。很多中国企业都是生产、代工、挂牌，而大部分国际品牌都有很强的环保意识和要求，如果不符合用工要求不会下单，这就是国际品牌的倒逼；第二，这个行业设立了“企业公民办公室”， 大大地推动了行业往这个方向发展，形成了行业主轴。
Perhaps it is more about how to use NGOs to establish relationships with various industries and societies to drive green development. For example, the China Textile Association does not have too many large enterprises as members, but rather they have about 230,000 SMEs. Although the textile industry is one of the main contributors to pollution, it is doing very well in environmental protection for two reasons. First is the pressure from the international community. Many Chinese companies are suppliers to international brands, and most of them have a strong awareness of environmental protection and requirements. If the requirements are not met, they will simply not place any orders. Secondly, the textile industry is one of the first to set up a “corporate citizenship office,” which greatly propelled the industry to move in a green direction and now the concept of pursuing green development is aligned among corporates in the textile industry.
再譬如说我所在的房地产行业的发展， 我们采购许多如钢材、水泥、木材等涉及碳排的物料。所以我们现正实践绿色供应链的概念，并联合第三方认证机构，确保我们所采购的木材是符合环保标准的。如果从未来发展来说，中国企业一定要走出去，包括业务、投资和生态环保的经验输出，要与国际组织、跨国企业联手合作。毕竟中国企业不少累积的经验都是在中国大陆上，或”一带一路”上。所以，我们应该与国际组织和跨国企业合作， 不仅联手做生意，也可以联手做生态保护，对中国企业和公益组织来说都是非常有帮助的。
Another example is the real estate industry that I am in. As you may know, we purchase a lot of carbon emitting materials, such as steel, cement, wood and so on. We are now implementing a green supply chain concept and have found a third party to certify that the wood we purchase complies with environmental requirements. If we look at our future development, Chinese companies must go abroad. This includes business, investment and eco-friendliness. We need to cooperate with international organizations and multinational companies. After all, a lot of experience of Chinese companies was accumulated in mainland China, or in the “Belt and Road Initiative” countries. Therefore, we should cooperate with international organizations and multinational companies, not only to do business but also for ecological protection, which would be very helpful for Chinese companies and local NGOs.
陈启宗：你说支持环保公益，那么目前中国最值得投放资源的方面有哪些？
You mentioned your support for environmental philanthropy. What are the most worthwhile areas to invest resources in China at the moment?
王石：我觉得最值得投放的还是公民教育。我举个例：万科公益基金会的垃圾分类项目。我从2000年开始做，到今年已经20年了。这20年我的体会是：垃圾分类可以说很容易，也可以说很难。分辨可否回收，做到干湿垃圾分离，算是简单的部分；复杂的部分在于习惯。要改变这种浪费的习惯是很难的，尤其在社区层面，动员大家一起来改变习惯、观念，是需要很多投入的。我认为，环保问题无论是哪方面的投入，都要跟教育结合到一起，这是最重要的。虽然垃圾分类是个很小的点，但我用它打通了社区动员的模式，有了一定基础和经验后，再有什么新的诉求，比如我现在推动的碳中和社区，比起以前真的是事半功倍。所以在环保事务方面，教育仍是非常重要的， 另外教育亦是要由少年、儿童做起，效果是最好的。
I think the most worthwhile investment is civic education. Let me give you an example: Vanke Foundation’s waste management project. I have been involved since 2000. My experience in the past 20 years is that garbage sorting can be said to be both easy and difficult. The simple part is to distinguish whether it is recyclable and then to separable wet from dry garbage; the complicated part is to drive behavioral change. It is very difficult to change wasteful habits, especially at the community level, and it takes a lot of investment to mobilize people to change their habits and perceptions. I think it’s important to combine environmental issues with education, no matter where the investment is made. Although waste sorting is a very small area, I have used it to create a model to empower community mobilization. With a certain foundation and experience, any new initiatives, such as the carbon-neutral community that I am promoting now, would be much more effective than before. So, in environmental matters, education is still very important, and the best way is to start with children and teenagers.
陈启宗：依我观察，中国政府在很多方面——包括环保——是相当先进的。但也不可能一切事情都是由政府想出来的。那么，要是企业家有任何意见，与政府沟通的渠道畅通吗？
In my observation, the Chinese government is quite progressive in many ways, including environmental protection. But it is not realistic to expect all ideas to come from the government. So, if entrepreneurs have thoughts, are the channels of communication with the government open?
王石：是的，而且在我看来企业家是有优势的：他们比较敏感， 看事物比较清晰， 能够第一时间把握到国际事物的变化。这样看来，他们应该走在政策前面，而不是等到政府说出来再看如何配合。比如说刘晓光发起的阿拉善SEE，当时就是找到影响着北京沙尘暴的源头， 找到不同企业家一起关注、行动， 当然也就得到了政府的认可。
Yes, and I think one of the advantages that entrepreneurs have is that they are more sensitive, have clearer perspectives, and can grasp the international trends or dynamics. So, it seems that they should be ahead of the policy, rather than waiting for the government to say something and then fit into it. Take Liu Xiaoguang as an example, when he started the Alashan SEE Ecological Association, and mobilized different entrepreneurs to act together to find the reasons for the sandstorms affecting Beijing. They found the root of the problem, and such efforts were recognized by the government.